Yeah… I could understand believing it in the early days because of the claims that there was a link to autism and so on (I did). These days all that is thoroughly debunked… While it is true that some people get sick or die of complications (like infections), that number is VERY low, and MUCH lower than the number of people who would die from not doing vaccination. And a gazillion times less than auto accidents…
That said, a lot of people have only seen the old study (or at most small subsections thereof), and there are still tons of people promoting an anti-vaccine view. Very unfortunate.
I’m really happy you posted that response, Shannon. I’ve seen some otherwise extremely clever people post some really daft things about vaccinations of late, and it really gets me down – since the vaccination/autism thing has been so thoroughly debunked, as you say, it seems such a wicked idea to perpetuate. Good call.
I will admit I’m not a great fan of vaccinations. I grew up in the days before MMR jabs: they were just common childhood illnesses, you had a couple of weeks off school and that was it. I was quite ill with mumps, because I didn’t catch that till I was 11 or 12 I think.
As far as *ordinary* flu and swine flu are concerned, I’d rather take my chances and try and develop some sort of natural immunity if I can – or at least let my immune system deal with it perhaps with the aid of anti-inflammatories if need be. I think consenting adults should make their own informed choice balancing the risks against the consequences and not feel pressurized into deciding one way or the other.
If all people were like Don, we would never be able to eradicate smallpox virus. And for people being like Don we are not able to get rid of Polio virus.
Vaccinations are not the matter of “I, me, mine”, and it would be nice if people could think of something more than just their own ass. Unfortunately very few can.
Of course in case of new flu the matter is more complicated, but general idea is that vaccinations protect populations.
Totally off-topic, but I just looked at your IAM page, Don, and read your entry about the experience reviews. I haven’t been on IAM in a year or so, and used to love reviewing experiences. Interesting to see how few there are now!
HAMMERHEAD – Well in actual fact I have had a polio vaccination. I lived in Hong Kong for three years 1956-1959, at a time when polio was endemic, and I saw first-hand the damage it can do. And that was before the reliable vaccine which is used nowadays had been discovered. In that scenario the benefits of vaccination clearly outweighed the risks and attendant consequences of catching the disease.
To my mind the equation is quite different where the vaccination carries a risk, however small, balanced against a possible infection from which the majority of people are reported to recover relatively easily. Admittedly that is a generalization which the individual must make his or her own mind up about.
Incidentally, this was my follow-up comment to Gillian’s anti-vax posting:
All that said, the “regular” flu does kill quite a few people — far more than are affected by the side-effects of vaccines — and every once in a while, a “regular” flu outbreak kills millions of people (think the 1918 flu outbreak — an H1N1 variant — that killed 50 million people. H1N1 in the form of the 1918 pandemic had a mortality rate of 10-20%, which is hugely higher than the complication rate of the vaccine.
In the US alone, 200,000 people are HOSPITALIZED every year with the flu, and 36,000 DIE every year from the flu. For comparison there are about 3,000 new cases of autism per year in the US — and of course these are not conclusively all linked to the vaccine, whereas all the deaths I just mentioned are linked to the flu. And of course the flu vaccines are not 100% effective either. Still, if one goes by logic and numbers alone, then it seems like vaccines are the significantly safer alternative.
It is 100% true that the vaccines have complications (whether they are linked to autism or not). However, NOT taking the vaccine comes with a different set of complications and risks, given the right circumstances and exposures. The relevant question is which of the two options — each with pros and cons — is safer, and it seems to me that taking the vaccine is a lot safer. That doesn’t mean it’s 100% safe. It just means it’s significantly safer than the alternative.
This is an issue I’m shamefully conflicted about. While I personally am a huge advocate of science and “rational thought” in general, I personally don’t get flu shots. I’m a reasonably healthy young man, and haven’t caught the flu in years (although I got it all the time as a kid, in spite of the shots, which was bullshit.) And, from what I understand, the overwhelming majority of people who die from the flu are “high risk” patients, which I’m not, so I simply can’t be bothered.
That being said, if anyone is actually at risk of being seriously hurt by the flu (H1N1, or classic) they have no excuse for not getting the vaccine. And yes, I’m aware I can transmit it if I’m immune. That’s just going to require some flexible morality on my part.
Unfortunately, this is a problem I think is only going to get worse. I’m not about to point fingers at the people causing it, but knowledge about real science is declining depressingly fast in America. And so long as people base their actions on fear instead of logic (as they are wont to do) the anti-vax movement will keep going strong…
To Don: Just to clarify – I didn’t mean to tell you are the cause of polio not being eradicated at this timepoint.
This was just a generalization – people rthat avoid vaccinations make eradication impossible and that’s the fact.
I was vaccinated for Polio too, and I get flu shot every year for last few years or so. I also get a HBV vaccination from time to time – being HCP is not a piece of cake ;).
I’m 37 now and – despite the fact that I get vaccinated a lot more frequently than the rest of population – still doing quite well. I know it does not prove anything, but I feel I’m safer and the people I meet are safer as well.
“Of course you should feel free to research any medical treatment before accepting it. But ‘Listening to 1994′s Playmate Of The Year’ isn’t research. In fact, it proves you don’t even know how to use pictures of a Playmate, let alone medicine.”
Thank you Shannon for injecting some logic into this topic. Too often well meaning parents base their decisions on fear and distrust of authority. All four of my children have been vaccinated this season for H1N1, and did not have any obvious side effects. Hopefully we will not get the flu as a result, as we know of children in our school that were hospitalized for a week’s time due to H1N1 complications.
Apolicious, the link to the cracked site is dead on. Too many women follow celebrities like Gods in this country. Hopefully natural selection will take its course with these idiots.
Reminds me of a time one summer I saw a flyer on a street lamp for a garage sale that said it had “WMD’s” for sale along with books and dishes ect.., hilarious.
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Snagged this lol…
It’s funny (and depressing) because some people believe it. :(
Yeah… I could understand believing it in the early days because of the claims that there was a link to autism and so on (I did). These days all that is thoroughly debunked… While it is true that some people get sick or die of complications (like infections), that number is VERY low, and MUCH lower than the number of people who would die from not doing vaccination. And a gazillion times less than auto accidents…
That said, a lot of people have only seen the old study (or at most small subsections thereof), and there are still tons of people promoting an anti-vaccine view. Very unfortunate.
I’m really happy you posted that response, Shannon. I’ve seen some otherwise extremely clever people post some really daft things about vaccinations of late, and it really gets me down – since the vaccination/autism thing has been so thoroughly debunked, as you say, it seems such a wicked idea to perpetuate. Good call.
Umbrella Projetct?
I love both your blog and Gillian’s blog, and I think you are both highly intelligent. I would get such a kick at wathcing you two debate vaccines.
I will admit I’m not a great fan of vaccinations. I grew up in the days before MMR jabs: they were just common childhood illnesses, you had a couple of weeks off school and that was it. I was quite ill with mumps, because I didn’t catch that till I was 11 or 12 I think.
As far as *ordinary* flu and swine flu are concerned, I’d rather take my chances and try and develop some sort of natural immunity if I can – or at least let my immune system deal with it perhaps with the aid of anti-inflammatories if need be. I think consenting adults should make their own informed choice balancing the risks against the consequences and not feel pressurized into deciding one way or the other.
If all people were like Don, we would never be able to eradicate smallpox virus. And for people being like Don we are not able to get rid of Polio virus.
Vaccinations are not the matter of “I, me, mine”, and it would be nice if people could think of something more than just their own ass. Unfortunately very few can.
Of course in case of new flu the matter is more complicated, but general idea is that vaccinations protect populations.
Totally off-topic, but I just looked at your IAM page, Don, and read your entry about the experience reviews. I haven’t been on IAM in a year or so, and used to love reviewing experiences. Interesting to see how few there are now!
HAMMERHEAD – Well in actual fact I have had a polio vaccination. I lived in Hong Kong for three years 1956-1959, at a time when polio was endemic, and I saw first-hand the damage it can do. And that was before the reliable vaccine which is used nowadays had been discovered. In that scenario the benefits of vaccination clearly outweighed the risks and attendant consequences of catching the disease.
To my mind the equation is quite different where the vaccination carries a risk, however small, balanced against a possible infection from which the majority of people are reported to recover relatively easily. Admittedly that is a generalization which the individual must make his or her own mind up about.
Incidentally, this was my follow-up comment to Gillian’s anti-vax posting:
All that said, the “regular” flu does kill quite a few people — far more than are affected by the side-effects of vaccines — and every once in a while, a “regular” flu outbreak kills millions of people (think the 1918 flu outbreak — an H1N1 variant — that killed 50 million people. H1N1 in the form of the 1918 pandemic had a mortality rate of 10-20%, which is hugely higher than the complication rate of the vaccine.
In the US alone, 200,000 people are HOSPITALIZED every year with the flu, and 36,000 DIE every year from the flu. For comparison there are about 3,000 new cases of autism per year in the US — and of course these are not conclusively all linked to the vaccine, whereas all the deaths I just mentioned are linked to the flu. And of course the flu vaccines are not 100% effective either. Still, if one goes by logic and numbers alone, then it seems like vaccines are the significantly safer alternative.
It is 100% true that the vaccines have complications (whether they are linked to autism or not). However, NOT taking the vaccine comes with a different set of complications and risks, given the right circumstances and exposures. The relevant question is which of the two options — each with pros and cons — is safer, and it seems to me that taking the vaccine is a lot safer. That doesn’t mean it’s 100% safe. It just means it’s significantly safer than the alternative.
This is an issue I’m shamefully conflicted about. While I personally am a huge advocate of science and “rational thought” in general, I personally don’t get flu shots. I’m a reasonably healthy young man, and haven’t caught the flu in years (although I got it all the time as a kid, in spite of the shots, which was bullshit.) And, from what I understand, the overwhelming majority of people who die from the flu are “high risk” patients, which I’m not, so I simply can’t be bothered.
That being said, if anyone is actually at risk of being seriously hurt by the flu (H1N1, or classic) they have no excuse for not getting the vaccine. And yes, I’m aware I can transmit it if I’m immune. That’s just going to require some flexible morality on my part.
Unfortunately, this is a problem I think is only going to get worse. I’m not about to point fingers at the people causing it, but knowledge about real science is declining depressingly fast in America. And so long as people base their actions on fear instead of logic (as they are wont to do) the anti-vax movement will keep going strong…
To Don: Just to clarify – I didn’t mean to tell you are the cause of polio not being eradicated at this timepoint.
This was just a generalization – people rthat avoid vaccinations make eradication impossible and that’s the fact.
I was vaccinated for Polio too, and I get flu shot every year for last few years or so. I also get a HBV vaccination from time to time – being HCP is not a piece of cake ;).
I’m 37 now and – despite the fact that I get vaccinated a lot more frequently than the rest of population – still doing quite well. I know it does not prove anything, but I feel I’m safer and the people I meet are safer as well.
Speak of the devil. One of my favorite humor websites, Cracked, decided to address this very issue today, and did a fairly respectable job; https://www.cracked.com/funny-3046-celebrity-advice/
“Of course you should feel free to research any medical treatment before accepting it. But ‘Listening to 1994′s Playmate Of The Year’ isn’t research. In fact, it proves you don’t even know how to use pictures of a Playmate, let alone medicine.”
at least half the problem with ot autism is the people are the rest of us
at least half the problem with autism is everyone else
Sarah: I think Twwly would be much better at arguing than I. I get far to red in the face and flustered to carry on a good vax conversation! ;)
clearly i need to add twwly to my blog feed!
Thank you Shannon for injecting some logic into this topic. Too often well meaning parents base their decisions on fear and distrust of authority. All four of my children have been vaccinated this season for H1N1, and did not have any obvious side effects. Hopefully we will not get the flu as a result, as we know of children in our school that were hospitalized for a week’s time due to H1N1 complications.
Apolicious, the link to the cracked site is dead on. Too many women follow celebrities like Gods in this country. Hopefully natural selection will take its course with these idiots.
So in addition to this discussion, I’ve been reading a lot about this lately since it’s in the news, and now I caught a cold. I hate science.
Reminds me of a time one summer I saw a flyer on a street lamp for a garage sale that said it had “WMD’s” for sale along with books and dishes ect.., hilarious.
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