Comments on: Crazy 9/12 Lunatics

By: jason

jason — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:52:22 +0000

Thanks for posting this Shannon. I wouldn’t have seen it otherwise.
It wasn’t really covered properly in the UK, our media just wanted us to get all offended because the US used our system as an example of how bad it could get.

You used to post more political stuff back in the day, I miss your take on the shit that goes down…

By: Barb

Barb — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:04:11 +0000

Brandon writes; “I’m not my brother’s keeper.”

That really captures the essence of this debate.

By: Amanda

Amanda — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:39:15 +0000

Canada is in the top 10 of life expectancies in the world. Where is the USA again??

By: Shannon Larratt is Zentastic › Back from Africa

Shannon Larratt is Zentastic › Back from Africa — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:35:16 +0000

[...] following up a little on my previous much-commented-on post on healthcare, I wanted to recommend this Bill Moyers video in which he discusses the hypocrisy of [...]

By: Hutch

Hutch — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:27:22 +0000

From this Video I hear, FEAR. It has been said “Once we distill human emotions it comes down to LOVE and FEAR.” Me, I will take the side of LOVE every time.

By: DIYer

DIYer — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:57:51 +0000

Oh and one other thing: TELL THE GUVVERMINT TO STAY OUTTA MY MEDICARE! :-> :-) ;-) As for America being on the wrong track: gird your grids everybody, the whole "civilized" world is on a trajectory of financial collapse that will make the depression of the '30s look like a Sunday afternoon picnic. The likelihood of a tyrant popping up in lower Jesustan will approach 1.0 over the next few years. Any number of little blogs repeat this fact, with links to others that state it more clearly and buttress their assertions with as much proof as you can stand. (Twwly, you got room on your farm up there? I'm getting scared)

By: Shannon

Shannon — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:53:10 +0000

Brandon, I think you’re not understanding that if you have universal coverage, you have either the same care or more likely better care, and that your cost goes down significantly. The only thing you are gaining by paying double or more for your health insurance as a nation is that you get to stop so-called “undeserving” people from getting care. So, if your goal is to hurt people who are already hurting, keep your current system. If you want lower cost higher quality healthcare, go to the same system as is being used more successfully by the rest of the civilized world.

Also, two more points:

1. Paying insurance companies more, in a private system, does not encourage research. It discourages it if anything. Private insurance puts money into the BANKING and INSURANCE sectors. It does NOT put money into the healthcare system.

2. A private system in SOME cases raises taxes very slightly. However, it also RADICALLY lowers the cost of health insurance per capita, so in terms of overall cost per person, it results in MUCH LOWER spending.

By: DIYer

DIYer — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:36:33 +0000

Dmitry Orlov has a nice essay on the subject. Yep, these people are displaying their stupidity for the whole universe to watch. Interestingly the wingnut websites claim there were a million of 'em, while most of the sources I follow said maybe ten or twenty thousand. The hell of it is, the administration isn't working on anything that will change the "monetized healthcare" paradigm, so the teabaggers have a point if they could find it. They need to tell big pharma et al to "stuff it" and I just don't see a willingness by the O-man to step on the toes of any vested interests.

By: Brandon

Brandon — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:27:54 +0000

What I just don’t understand is why the government has to be put in charge of all of this. Dresden, if you don’t mind paying another few percent a year why can’t you pay that percent to a non-profit organization which would provide the same welfare services the government currently provides. If the government made those donations tax deductible I would probably donate money to the organization also.

The price of ultrasound machines has come down since they were invented. They have become smaller, of higher quality, and more accurate. These advances were made because money was invested in research. Money was invested because companies saw a potential for profit if they built the machine that more hospitals would buy. Capitalism drives innovation.

What happened if deductibles were raised for everyday procedures like physicals, vaccinations, or simple medical conditions. Health insurance premiums would go down because they would only have to cover catastrophic illness. You don’t expect your car insurance to cover an oil change, so why should your health insurance cover a checkup. If people had to pay more for routine care they would start to shop around to find the best price for the best service, or take better care of themselves. Because insurance picks up most of the tab there is no incentive for you to switch doctors even if another doctor charges thousands less. The reason why a single pill in a hospital cost eight dollars is because insurance companies will pay that eight dollars. If a hospital sprang up and started charging one dollar per pill no one would notice except those without insurance who pay out of pocket, the same people who have much less purchasing power and influence than insurance companies.

I agree the current system in the US is broken but not because there is too little insurance coverage.

By: dresden

dresden — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:40:31 +0000

Brandon, every thing you write validates my point. You’re saying some people are worth less than other people since they can’t contribute as much. You deny health care should be a right for everyone, and justify it that some people are worth less than others because of what they can offer. That’s a pretty dangerous way of thinking, especially when you could be on the lower side of that through some rough circumstances that are out of your control. Who cares if your taxes are higher and that you have to pay for some people that may not be as able minded/body as you. You’ll probably still have all the shit you want/need and then some. So will I. I make good money, and I don’t care. I’ll still probably make good money, and if I have to pay another few percent a year knowing that everyone might be a little better off, I’m ok with that. Paying less, getting less, and having no plan to deal with the people that will fall through the cracks will probably lead to a lot more bad stuff in the future. That’s my real issue with everyone on the libertarian platform, they talk big about personal responsibility and shit, when honestly, half the people I know who do talk about it like that (and I’m not indicating this is you) are about as responsible as the people they talk down about, i.e. living paycheck to paycheck and one bad circumstance away from being the poor they so loathe. I’m not saying the ideals behind it aren’t good. They’re not practical and they usually outline a scenario where everyone is equally capable of being the next Richy Rich.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:54:00 +0000

BTW, while I did approve “daddyll”‘s comment *think* that it’s not a comment from a zentastic reader, but a comment from someone who searches for these sorts entries around the Net to post on entries like this to give a false impression that there’s a larger set of believers.

I was also a little wary about posting it because it’s all distration away from the main point — that anti-healthcare thinking is being promoted through misdirection and incredible levels of ignorance, rather than a real discussion on the issues. That said, his post also repeats a lot of the strange-world lies and conspiracy thinking, as well as the statement that Fox News is mainstream and anyone who disagrees is fringe. It’s really amazing stuff watching people be turned into paranoid puppets.

By: DaddyLL

DaddyLL — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:22:11 +0000

Wow so many of you have fell into the US Govs MSM (or now fringe media) BS. Its almost funny. The 9/12 march (which I went to) was amazing. Lefts, rights and centers all together not because of health care but because our Gov is run by criminals and is robbing our people. They aren’t trying to help people with free health care, they are trying to keep many on the plantation and put the rest of us on it! This is about personal freedom and tax abuse to the point of no end! Health care is a real issue but that is just the cover the current congress is using to hide what is really going on here, power grabs, control and a system of gov that none of us want. We are a republic, not a democracy and we are a capitalist society not a socialist one. But again that is not the point, the point is the health care, much like many other things, are a pact of lies, lies said like many other lies the Obama administration as said and he has went back on, only to attempt to gain power. KRS-One said it best when he said “All you did was put a black face on the tyranny and we all voted it was ok…many people are waking up to realize its not” (KRS-ONE is an African American) If you have a spare but of time go watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw Might explain some things. All this talk about race, hell Obama is more white then he is black! Get a fuckign grip man and look at the big picture! One lie after another

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 00:40:15 +0000

The hispanics that everyone’s up in arms about whether they too will receive free medical care are I assume, undocumented workers. (That is the p.c. term for 2009, right?) Undocumented workers do not have to provide any proof of income and are eligible for not only health care but even food stamps. My MIL is an occupational therapist who’s been at her wit’s end for some years over Americans being denied access to her care while undocumented workers get it.

In your opinion, if we pass the current health bill, since it is a public system they will then seek to be cost effective? If this is the case, why then is it being pushed, payed for by pharmecutical and insurance companies? I am all for healthcare for all, it would be a great relief to know that my family had access to quality care, no matter what. Maybe we could introduce a bill that follows Canada’s healthcare policies and too have lowered administrative and pharmecutical cost. Until then, no. Not this legislation, it stinks like a Friday fish on Tuesday morning.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 00:00:09 +0000

Here in Canada you would be offered a generic — because the goal of the system is not to charge the most amount of money in the easiest way, but, because it’s a public system, its goal is to provide the best service at the best cost.

Hispanics do not get free healthcare, unless you’re saying that all hispanics are below the poverty line?

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:32:39 +0000

When you are in the hospital, they do not offer generic. I wasnt speaking of how much it costs *me* to go buy tylenol because obviously this is dramatically less than $8.00 per pill. Clearly if an individual can purchase Tylenol from the drug store for around $3.00 a bottle, charging $8.00 per capsule when you are a large institution, presumably able to buy in bulk is more than a tad ridiculous and goes FAR towards explaining why healthcare is not affordable to the masses.
But no, I do not really see how donating money to research is the answer at all. Unless it is to research ways to lower healthcare costs. There is no way that my husband’s ER visit that consisted of a few simple lab tests and maybe a ten minute consultation should have cost $850. Ridiculous and I dont see where continuing to pay THAT MUCH is a solution.
To the people whining about the impoverished being denied healthcare, those in poverty, for instance, those already living in government housing already DO receive free healthcare, as do hispanics. ALl this bill does is force working class Joe’s like me to pay for insurance at the same rate as someone with far higher health risk, far less healthy lifestyle. Forced or fined way more than I have spent in healthcare in years. No.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:22:10 +0000

Not sure what debt per capita has to do anything… in the USA it’s about $41k as of 2007, and it’s gone up since. In Canada the number is $22k. There’s nothing particularly unique or unusual about the US in that department. But none of that has anything to do with what we’re talking about, and I’m not sure that your quote is that relevant either.

BTW, donating money to research does NOT reduce the cost of tylenol, nor does “tylenol have artificially low competition”, seeing as it’s available as a generic.

I don’t mean to be rude, but the further this progresses, the less informed and the more nutty you’re seeming.

By: Brandon

Brandon — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:00:52 +0000

If you look at the debt per capita of every “wealthy” nation in the world you’ll find that the only country that is close to America is Italy, and the only country below America is Japan. The same is true for % of gdp. In Italy there are long waiting lines, there is a shortage of medical technologies, and “physicians are payed via capitation”*. In Japan “the average Japanese household spends $2300 per year on out-of-pocket health care expenses.”* Although their levels of medical technology is equal to the US there are long waiting lines for the top hospitals because they can’t price according to demand. In Japan, “two-thirds of patients spend less than 10 minutes with their doctor; 18 percent spend less than 3 minutes.”* Those both sound like great systems if you aren’t chronically or seriously ill.
*https://healthcare-economist.com/category/health-care-around-the-world/

@Elizabeth
What if the government took all the money it’s planning to spend on universal healthcare and gave it to medical research facilities. With all that money they would be able to drop the cost of Tylenol through the floor or come up with a cheaper alternative. Tylenol also has artificially low competition. Because the government decided it’s in our best interest to not use opium, Tylenol can charge more for their inferior product.

@Dresden
Please back up your assertion with some sort of thoughtful commentary.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:42:54 +0000

Libertarianism, like most extreme or black and white views, can offer valuable opinions/voices in the political dialog, but I can’t imagine a world in which they could actually govern.

By: Dresden

Dresden — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:16:08 +0000

Libertarian is the greed party. Liberty for those who can afford it, and fuck everyone else.

By: Shannon

Shannon — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:09:46 +0000

Don’t worry Eric, even if I could come up with better examples of gangs who have a social mandate and more money (I might be able to), I’m not about to hand them police-level rights!